ORAL HISTORIES Part 2

The oral histories have been transcribed from audio recordings captured on October 12, 2011, day 20 of the Occupy Chicago Protests.  The interviewers are listed along with the corresponding interviews they conducted.  The biographical information of those protestors who were interviewed has been noted, in terms of the extent to which it was provided.

​Interviewers: Erin Feichtinger, Nicole Perez

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Interviewee: Anthony Di Lorenzo

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E:  Will you say your name for the record?

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ADL: Anthony Di Lorenzo

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E: Ok so talk about what you think about the movement and what you think about occupying public space.  Just go for it…

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ADL: Well, I think the idea of a perpetual occupation of a particular public space allows for a pretty high degree of visibility for the movement.  It allows for a number of different people to come in and out but still maintain a consistent presence.  In general, I think the movement is all about just increasing visibility, getting some type of coverage in the media, some attention to what has been a neglected majority opinion.  A lot of people that are just sort of disheartened, I think feel that they haven’t had an outlet for it and they’re just complaining about it at home or just complaining about it with a couple friends.  This provides a physical location where people can congregate with various grievances, which is very useful and I think its gonna only grow.

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E:  Let’s talk about Monday, about the big rally…

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ADL: Yeah, there was a very diverse rally on Monday, on Columbus Day, which included members of the teachers’ union, other blue collar workers, demographically very diverse, different age groups, racial groups, students, unemployed.  We’re voicing our grievances.  I also saw a lot of support from passersby, you know, people who would just give a quick “woot, woot,” people that would be driving the cabs by, honking, general people honking.  You know, voicing their support for the movement, which is good. It’s a really promising sign.  The police generally seem friendly to the movement, which is nice.  They didn’t seem to be overly hostile or antagonistic to the people who were present.  They essentially blocked off the entire entryway to the Board of Trade, so I was actually kind of surprised how much leeway they gave the protestors. 

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N: Was the Board of Trade open?

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ADL: Yeah, I think so.  There were people in there.  There were a number of men in suits doing the jerk off sign from the window and it looked like they were drinking beers.  So… there was some hostility from the people that work there.

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N:  Were there others who saw that?

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ADL: Yeah, there were people pointing up there, just like, “look at these idiots.”  But, there were some people that walked through the crowd that obviously worked there and it wasn’t like they were assaulted.  I don’t think they felt physically threatened, but, you know, just to constantly be reminded that there are people that find the activities, the interests of the highest levels of these organizations and the centers of fiscal power… that people have general grievances I think is good just to make people generally aware of the work on the lower levels.  They gotta just reassess who they’re benefitting with their labor, with their work.

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N: Monday’s rally was here?

ADL:  Yeah, it was here.  There was also a march that I think went to Michigan Avenue or State Street then came back.  It was a pretty large presence.  Much larger than it is today.  I think there was supposed to be… I think it was over 1,000 people.

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N: Is this spot chosen for the financial institutions? Is that the target group?

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ADL:  Yeah.  It’s the Board of Trade.  You have people who are pushing money around, who are… Some of them are involved in some type of insider trading and financial shenanigans that got us in to this mess.  So, I think that’s why this location was chosen.  And the fact that it’s federal makes it easier to protest at.  You know, it is a public space.  It would be more difficult to protest in front of Citi Bank or something because they are private.  There are places that you can protest and just places you can’t. 

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N: In terms of the sidewalks?

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ADL: Sidewalks you usually can, but some of them have plazas that are private that you can’t occupy.  The federal plaza in front of the Board of Trade, I think, you probably need a permit, but it’s technically a public space.

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E: So why don’t you talk about what this movement is to you?  Why are you here? Why were you here on Monday?

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ADL: Well I have been one of those people who felt… I was looking for some type of an outlet for my grievances with the financial industry.  I think overall our representatives and traditional representative institutions have not been very responsive to the concerns of many and it’s important to make ourselves heard and make ourselves seen.  There are a lot of people that want to push policy in another direction and want some accountability for the types of fiscal irresponsibility that these people don’t often feel like they’re accountable for.  If they’re too big to fail and they get bailed out, it’s too big to fail by design.  They know that they’re gonna get bailed out because they’ve structure the industry in a way that makes them too big to fail. If they collapse, they know they can bring an entire financial sector with them.  If there’s no accountability, you know, conditions for bailout money, etcetera, then I don’t see it being prevented in the future.  So, we have to make sure that people are aware that it’s not gonna be tolerated.

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N: Are there any solutions or goals that you’d like to see come about?
 

ADL: Well, I would like to see some of the more egregious violations… Those individuals be held accountable, legally.  I would like to see more conditions placed on the financial industry for… well it’s probably too for bailout money, but new regulations, new oversight that limits certain types of trading.  That would help, but overall, I just think there needs to be a shift in the tax base.  You have wealthy corporations, the %1, and that’s the rally cry around here, there’s 99% and the 1% disproportionately monopolizing a majority of the nation’s wealth and it’s not just because they work harder.  It’s due to exploitation, it’s due to some disingenuous financial dealings among other things and I think we need to shift that tax burden toward those that are… The gap in income is the highest its been since the guilded age and, you know, it seems to me to be unacceptable in a country with massive wealth to see as this gentleman just mentioned, people without baby formula or the unemployment rate at the level that it is.  I’d like to see a lot more public works projects. The government is a major employer and one of the largest things you hear on the Right right now is that we shouldn’t tax these job creators, but yet they’re willing to just completely eliminate budgets of the social programs and government programs that employ a lot of people, and also serve a community function and aren’t just motivated by profit.  So, I think we need to support those social programs during a period like this and it’s the last time you would want to cut social programs is during a crisis like this.  Hopefully, we can shine a light on all of those issues and push our representatives in a direction that they can recognize

there are voters out there too that want their interests met.









Interviewers: Greg Ruth

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Interviewee:  Kevin Rigot

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G: Your name?

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KR: Kevin Rigot

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G: Age?

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KR: 22

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G: Occupation?

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KR: Student

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G: How many days have you been protesting on and off?

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KR: 12 probably

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G: Hometown?

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KR: Denver

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G: I want to start off, just kind of tell me what has been going on here man?  You said you’ve been here twelve days…

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KR: Yeah, you know there’s lots of stuff in the media about… You know, you get the media reports of what this is but really just being on the ground, it really at heart is a solidarity movement.  Not just with New York but with each other and with, I mean, everyone around the globe who feels like they’re being suppressed in some way or that shit’s fucked up.  And it’s really an experiment in community and how to take care of each other and how to form a viable society, you know, which you’re not gonna hear any reporter talk about but that’s really what’s happening.  On one level, it’s a protest, but on another level, we’re just moving from that system and we’re forming our own.

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G: How are the reports characterizing it? That it’s different?

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KR: It’s mostly very surface level.  Like, you know, they all say the same thing pretty much, which is nothing.  It’s always just like how they’re like protesting, whatever specific thing they say.  You know, whether it’s, I don’t know, whether it’s job opportunities or, I don’t know, wage disparities.  Whatever it is they got some little thing.  And they say that it’s a couple hundred people, when theres a thousand people, a couple dozen when theres a couple hundred.  I don’t know, they don’t ever get in to substance of what actually happens.  I don’t know, I guess I’ve seen a couple that are pretty good.  Wall Street Journal Online did a pretty good piece but… The Tribune or whenever you see it on TV, its just generally like they’re doing it for the sake of saying they did it.  Their actual reporting doesn’t seem to be too important but whatever…

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G: So you’ve experienced that solidarity and that community once you’ve come down here… what kind of first prompted you to come down here?

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KR: Um… I don’t know man, like, it’s kind of my whole history I guess.  Just being interested in like human rights, social justice to start, and then somehow I got really in to Che Guevara and revolution and all that good stuff.  You know, me and my roommates have been following this whole thing for a while.  When Occupy Wall Street started we were watching it online and we were like, “fuck, like, we gotta go,” and then we heard that D.C. was doing one and we were like, “let’s go to D.C.”  I don’t know, I was just like, that sucks, I wish Chicago would… And then one day my roommate, like, one day he was like, “hey, I just figured it out, they’re doing one in Chicago, lets go” and that was like day 2.  I came down here day 3 and you know, it’s just real and you can’t always tell that, especially if you’re seeing it on MSNBC or whatever.  Once you spend time down here, if you’re in to this kind of stuff, it’s a real life.  It’s almost like what we’ve been told America should be and it’s just like, you can’t leave it because the people are cool, the people are real.  You can apply yourself.  I’m writing. I’m doing photography.  I’m talking with people every day.  I’m going to talk to a class at Roosevelt tomorrow, and you know, you don’t need to have a degree to do that. You talk to people, and you hook up, and you say, “hey, like, we got something to share with each other, so lets do it.”

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G:  It’s a real world education you don’t get in the classroom…

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KR: Yeah, and it sucks because I’m taking really good classes this semester, but, like, I gotta come down here you know.

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G: Are a lot of the people students in a similar situation?

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KR: Uhhh… yeah.  I think it’s definitely… I don’t know, it’s not true to say it’s all students because that’s one thing they do say.  It’s a bunch of upper-middle class white college kids, and, granted, there are a few of us, but there’s a whole bunch of people.  People who work, people who don’t work, people who are retired.  Every spectrum of society shows up here, one way or another.  Well, almost, you know, we haven’t breached the entire Chicago community yet but it’s still young…

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G:  Can you talk us through a normal day maybe?

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KR: Yeah every day down here is pretty, uh… we kinda keep a regular schedule.  We have general assemblies every day, I think at one and seven.  Those are kind of the hallmark event we do every day.  We just all get together and we can announce things and vote on things, whether it’s to form a committee about something or to pass a list of grievances we’re all going to adopt.  Those are the big events every day, but throughout the day, people are down here 24/7, you know. So, 5 or 6, the sun starts to come up, people go to McDonalds’s, get some breakfast, and then line up for all the people coming to work.  That’s a crazy thing.  Just seeing hundreds and hundreds of people, you know, walking in to these buildings and you’re trying to hand out flyers, trying to make eye contact, just trying to get a human response from them.  Lots of people are really, really good. Lots of people smile and say like, “hey thanks for doing this” or… Lots of people are interested to talk.

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G: People that are working in the very buildings you guys are outside of - the Board of Trade buildings, the bank buildings - will sometimes smile and say, “thanks for doing this”?

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KR: Yeah, lots of people, you can tell, know what we’re doing and they just kinda look over and give us a wink or just like a, “sorry I can’t be with you but I’m with you.”  And you know there are a good number of people who have the opposite reaction but I think we get through to more and more every day. So, you know, that happens and then I don’t know man, we just kinda chill out for a while.  Lots of people just show up and we talk.  We’ve had classes come down here.  A high school class was down here.  It was pretty weird.  And then we have committees, like education committee, police committee, tech committee, media, whatever, a committee for everything. So we’ll get together and talk about little things that each committee can do.  It ranges from organizing things, to like, if you’re gonna post something on the website, you need to…  You know, the stupid specifications.  So it’s very democratic in a way,

but very organic.  It’s like we have the bureaucratic structure, but… We’re doing a very good job of not making it bureaucratic at all.

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G: So it’s actually democratic, is that how you might characterize it?

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KR: Yeah, it’s spontaneous, I don’t know… this is the way I see it, because you could say we do have a democracy now because you can vote and you can write your congressman or whatever but… Things get outdated and things move so quick in the world that I feel like it doesn’t work too well, and for other reasons too.  Down here its like spontaneous and organic.  If something needs to happen, you’re not gonna say, “ok we’ll wait until everyone gets down here tomorrow and we can all talk about it.”  It’s like, whoever is there, whoever’s in the committee at that time, whoever’s at the general assembly, like, you make that decision, and you gotta trust that they’re gonna make the right one.  If I’m not there, like, I trust that everyone here is on the same page.  It’s spontaneous, you know, because it’s like, right now, this is what we need, this is what the people have agreed on, this is what the people need.  We don’t need to run it through Senate and Congress and whatever to… you know, because by the time that happens, it’s different, it’s outdated, you know, there are changes.  So this is really cool, it’s just like (snaps fingers).  You know, just kinda playing it by ear.  We go on marches a lot, that’s a big thing.  And it’s a blast.  Depending on the numbers… I haven’t been on one in a while but the first one I went on, we had like 150 people.  We just walked down Jackson, up through Millennium Park, and then all the way down Michigan.  You know, we got chants, and we got signs just to get people’s attention.

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G: Can you share a couple of the chants with us?

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KR:  Someone yells, “Show me what democracy looks like” and everyone… “This is what democracy looks like.”  That one’s sweet because everyone just, like, really gets in to it.  There’s: “Who’s streets? Our streets.”  That one’s kind of a joke, like, if we’re at Millennium Park we’ll say, “Who’s park? Our park.”  “Who’s bean? Our bean.”  I’m trying to think of what else… those are the ones I remember.

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G:  I hear a lot of drums and music’s a big part of it…

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KR: Yeah, we had some issues with this being kind of laid back compared to New York or whatever, and we kind of let our guard down and lost some privileges.  Well not privileges.  Lost some ground, you know.  On one level, it’s very much like a celebration or party.  You know, we have a good time down here.  There are times when it’s tense and people aren’t happy, which sucks, but lots of the time… especially at night, it’s a bunch of cool people just hanging out.  You got donuts, and coffee, and guitars, and drums.  It’s a good combination for a good time so…

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G:  Have there been some kind of contestations over the space you guys use? you know, like that guy making us move earlier, trying to make us move or whatever…

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KR: They’ve been relatively minor for the most part.  It started, like I think the third day, those barricades over there…

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G: At the Federal Reserve Bank?

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KR: Yeah, at the Federal Reserve Bank.  People have been sleeping out, like actually sleeping right up against the wall for three days.  I think it was the first Monday we were here, everyone went marching, and when that happened the Fed put up these barricades so we couldn’t… and it’s just this thing, “oh now we can’t sleep there,” so now we have to hangout on the sidewalk and so hopefully we’ll block the sidewalks so the police can kick us off.  It’s like, ok we won’t block the sidewalk, we’ll spread our shit around.  And then they say you can’t keep your stuff here because, I don’t know, public ordinance whatever.  Or you can’t put up a tent because of another public ordinance.  You know people get all, like, “oh no this shit’s like…” the cops are crackin’ down, what are we gonna do?  But it’s not really a thing.  Coming from the top, not the CPD, because the police have been very awesome with us.  I personally think it’s coming from Rahm or whoever works in there.  They’ve been trying to suffocate this, and make it just impossible for us to practice our First Amendment rights.  It’s weird, you know, First Amendment, peaceful assembly right?  But that’s superseded by all these city ordinances.  You can peacefully assemble, as long as you’re not setting up tents or doing this or doing that.  It’s like the system is set up so that the right is there, but in no way can we practice it fully or really take advantage of it.

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G:  So it’s the government saying they’re acting in the public interest?

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KR:  Yeah, it’s like peaceful assembly, as long as it doesn’t danger public safety, which it doesn’t.  None of us are smashing windows or throwing Molotov cocktails or anything.  Like, we’re just fucking chilling, you know, but they can say there are too many people.  A riot could start or someone could instigate something, therefore it’s unsafe for you to assemble.  It’s kinda like, uhhh, I guess the Big Brother analogy but like your parents.  You know, like when they say you are 16 and you can drive, or you are 18 and allowed to smoke cigarettes, but we’re not letting you because it’s bad for you, or we’re gonna kick out of the house if you do it.  Or you can’t be out past curfew because there are drunk drivers out there.  Or if you’re out past curfew, you’re probably getting drunk too.  It’s an overbearing protection.  It isn’t really protection.  It’s not protection of us, it’s protection of the banks and all those people.

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G:  Is that one of the things people are most angry about, or brings people here the most?  They think the banks were protected…

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KR:  I think that’s a huge thing.  That really goes back to the bailouts.  I don’t really get into the deep political maneuverings of that stuff anymore because it just makes you kinda sick and you don’t need to read all this shit to understand that things aren’t going well.  Maybe a bailouts a suitable thing for certain situations, I don’t know.  One thing you see is the banks get bailed out, and then their CEOs still get millions of dollars of bonuses.  That seems kinda like… oh wow, obviously you don’t give a shit about us at all, so… It’s just all the people who don’t wanna share, and who don’t wanna help out with everyone…

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G: Do you think there’s a lot of frustration with the government too for not holding the banks accountable?

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KR: Yeah I think that’s there.  You get a lot of different people here.  You get some people who are hardcore anarchists and like, just really hold this intense, passionate, dislike towards the government, or to police officers, or any authority figures.  Then there’s a lot of us who, I don’t know, personally I see it as the government itself is a compromised institution as it is.  And it is just an institution.  It’s good or bad depending on the people who are in it.  I think most of it is really just like, we’re just politely telling them to fuck off.  We don’t need the banks, we don’t need the government.  We can do it ourselves.  We’re channeling the frustration into organizing and… Like, I was at Occupy Denver a couple days ago and it’s awesome to see Denver and all the other…

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G: Yeah, how’s that different than Chicago?

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KR:  There are people there, and they’ve got the same signs.  Same general policies.  But to me, it looked like there was just a lot of people just chillin’, not doin’ anything.  And weed is kind of semi-legal out there, so lots of people just tokin’ up and really not doing anything.  I noticed that while the effort was there, in Chicago we’ve done so much that I don’t think people realize.  We really spend a lot of time, whether it’s in committees, or general assemblies, or just when we’re just hanging out with other people, just talking and figuring out what do we need to do, what’s the next step, how can we make this better, how are we gonna get this to spread, whatever it is.  I mean, we spend a ton of time on that and we’ve been really lucky.  The police have been very cooperative.  We started off slow enough that there wasn’t an explosive spark of violence, like in New York or Boston, wherever, Los Angeles I think.  So, we’ve had no arrests in, I don’t know, are we on day 18 or something?  I don’t know, but… not a single Occupy Chicago protestor has been arrested.  So, we’ve been completely peaceful and non-violent, and yet we’re making a difference.  Not only that, but we’re providing a solution to how people can organize and communicate or work together.  It’s like a mini society out here in a way.  It’s not perfect, we got some kinks to work out, but without all the bullshit and corruption, you know…  I mean there are people who want power and people who have a hard time stepping away from leadership roles.  But as a whole, we’re trying to empower everyone so everyone is on the same level.  And it’s going pretty good.

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G: What are some of the things you guys talk about in the committees?  Do you have a couple things that come up over and over again?

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KR:  You know, I haven’t even really been around for too many committee meetings.  They’ve been really informal.  They’re just starting to get organized.  I’ve been doing lots of… not lots but a couple ones I have attended are like stuff for the website because I write for the website and I put pictures up.  All we really talked about was our understanding of how we would out things up, like if we need to get it cleared by everyone or who we need to talk to make sure it gets proofread for content and for grammar.  It’s really little things like that.  But then you might have a housing committee that will say, “hey, we’re getting too many people” and we need a camp.  Let’s look for a private park that will let us actually set up a camp or lets find a public space where we can… you know, lets get a permit to do this or do that.  So, planning bigger things too.  It’s all based on what needs to happen right then and there.

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G: Do some leaders start to emerge in the committee or the general assembly?  And what kinda makes them a leader?

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KR:  I would say the biggest thing that makes them a leader is a lack of understanding of what it is to be a leader, by the general, you know… and not to say that people aren’t leaders.  It’s that we have this conception of being a leader as someone who is vocal and present and knows everything and can stand up and take action right away.  We have lots of people like that.  Most of them I’ve gotten to know because we’ve been here since the very beginning of the protests and that’s really how lots of it came up was… we’ve been here longer and we kinda know how things work.  We’ve seen it out a little farther.  And that’s something we’re… we’re kinda moving away from that because, I mean, that doesn’t make a leader.  Really what the thing is, is trying to empower everyone to realize that everyone is a leader.  Just because you’re not vocal or you don’t like to run around with a megaphone on marches doesn’t mean you’re not a leader, you know.  Lots of people do small things, lots of people big things.  I think the big issue is recognizing that to be a leader it doesn’t need to be recognized by a title or by getting voted in to a seat in office or whatever.  You have to know that you’re doing your best work and everything you’re doing is for everyone.  And if you do that, people will notice.  People will come to you and say, “hey Kevin, like, can you help me out with this?” or “what do you think of this?”  I mean once everyone starts doing that it’s a completely organic flow of information and exchange of ideas and leadership.  The way I see it, we shouldn’t need to have leaders who are here all the time…